Personally, I believe rights go hand in hand with responsibility. It is my right as an American citizen of the US to vote, so it is my responsibility to vote. I very much agree with you that rights go hand in hand with responsibility. However, I believe that voting is a right we have been given because it doesn't matter, that it is a sop to our desire for change, our desire to make things better. Actual political change only comes through hard work, voting is too easy. Also, how can voting be important when in living memory the president who was placed in power was the one who did not have the majority of the popular vote? And then there is the issue of delegates at the political conventions. I'm under the impression, due to reading headlines about 'super-delegates' that they may vote against the wishes of the state they represent. Am I wrong about this? I see that as another way in which the individual vote is made worthless.
The way I see it, if voting is so easy, why not just do it? It doesn't preclude you from doing things you think are more important or effective. And is worth the small amount of effort on the off-chance that it *does* make a difference.
The ease of voting gives weight to the lie, makes it all the more pernicious. It's easy to do, gives the people the feeling that they've made a difference, that they've fulfilled their responsibilities and need do no more. By voting, I would buy into the lie, the myth.
Look, I'm not here to convince you to vote, but this seems more like after the fact reasoning than a plan of action. You're implying that by voting you're going to brainwash yourself, or others. Sorry, you're not that gullible, or that popular. (I mean, you're cool and all, but really.)
If you don't believe voting helps, then don't vote. It's your vote, you can do as you like with it.
what i've been trying to do, with this conversation (hijacking of mike's LJ entry), is to determine if i'm doing the right thing by not voting. i need to get other people's opinions to see if i'm acting completely irrationally. i'm trying to see if this should be my plan of action for the future.
i'm implying that by voting, i somehow, in some little way, give validation to a system that i feel is corrupt and lying.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
i'm implying that by voting, i somehow, in some little way, give validation to a system that i feel is corrupt and lying.
Of course it's a corrupt system; anything with people in it is going to be prey to corruption, deception, power-mongering and outright aggression, because we're humans and that's how we roll. My idea is to fight to minimize these things, rather than take my ball and go home. I don't think I can win; I certainly don't think I can win on my own; but my value system requires that I keep playing, even by rules that suck.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
As have yours for me. Thanks for the input, and thanks also to Mike for putting up with us both!
However, I believe that voting is a right we have been given because it doesn't matter, that it is a sop to our desire for change, our desire to make things better. Actual political change only comes through hard work, voting is too easy.
Right. But I don't see where "not voting" is a part of this process. Political activity starts, not ends, at the voting booth. For me, it's the minimum I feel I have to do as an American citizen. Beyond that, I (and Aaron, since he's the one mailing the checks) donate money to organizations that are more directly affecting change than I can on my own. I still consider that on the low end of what I could be doing, but time and skills are limited. None of this gives me a pass not to vote, however.
I think a single vote is, in the vast majority of cases, not very powerful. But the idea that votes are not powerful is an excellent way to make damned sure they are not. And there are plenty of organizations that are counting on this, and encouraging this, our own government being one of them. It would be much more convenient if they didn't have to have elections; much as it would be convenient for me to not have to get up at the asscrack of dawn to get to my polling place and do my damned bare-minimum job as a voter. But, frankly, a lot of people went through a lot of fucking inconvenience so I'd have the opportunity. Even if it's symbolic, even if it means jack in real terms, it makes me - and every other voter - a stakeholder in the process. Last thing we need is to take more people out of the process, don't you think?
The US government is not ideal. But it does derive, tenuously, its authority from the people who are governed by it. It's already been undermined thoroughly by money and power from other sources. I have no intention of speeding up that process by giving up what microscopic responsibility I have.
i feel that since the voting process has been so devalued by specific structures with american politics (the electoral college, the delegate system), voting should be taken out of the political process entirely. and yes, i know that doesn't make any sense. i'm currently flailing about trying to come up with a philosophical position that takes into account the flaws of the current system and my belief in the usefulness of direct political action.
your points about the symbolic power of voting, i agree with completely. to have this right taken away, even though i still feel it's pointless on an individual level, would be a terrible thing.
but here's where i feel myself being very hypocritical. if i feel so strongly that people should be involved in the political process beyond the fig leaf of voting, why aren't i? and i have no answers for that either.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 09:50 pm (UTC)I very much agree with you that rights go hand in hand with responsibility. However, I believe that voting is a right we have been given because it doesn't matter, that it is a sop to our desire for change, our desire to make things better. Actual political change only comes through hard work, voting is too easy.
Also, how can voting be important when in living memory the president who was placed in power was the one who did not have the majority of the popular vote?
And then there is the issue of delegates at the political conventions. I'm under the impression, due to reading headlines about 'super-delegates' that they may vote against the wishes of the state they represent. Am I wrong about this? I see that as another way in which the individual vote is made worthless.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 01:09 am (UTC)If you don't believe voting helps, then don't vote. It's your vote, you can do as you like with it.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 03:26 am (UTC)i'm implying that by voting, i somehow, in some little way, give validation to a system that i feel is corrupt and lying.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 04:16 am (UTC)Of course it's a corrupt system; anything with people in it is going to be prey to corruption, deception, power-mongering and outright aggression, because we're humans and that's how we roll. My idea is to fight to minimize these things, rather than take my ball and go home. I don't think I can win; I certainly don't think I can win on my own; but my value system requires that I keep playing, even by rules that suck.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
As have yours for me. Thanks for the input, and thanks also to Mike for putting up with us both!
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:32 pm (UTC)Right. But I don't see where "not voting" is a part of this process. Political activity starts, not ends, at the voting booth. For me, it's the minimum I feel I have to do as an American citizen. Beyond that, I (and Aaron, since he's the one mailing the checks) donate money to organizations that are more directly affecting change than I can on my own. I still consider that on the low end of what I could be doing, but time and skills are limited. None of this gives me a pass not to vote, however.
I think a single vote is, in the vast majority of cases, not very powerful. But the idea that votes are not powerful is an excellent way to make damned sure they are not. And there are plenty of organizations that are counting on this, and encouraging this, our own government being one of them. It would be much more convenient if they didn't have to have elections; much as it would be convenient for me to not have to get up at the asscrack of dawn to get to my polling place and do my damned bare-minimum job as a voter. But, frankly, a lot of people went through a lot of fucking inconvenience so I'd have the opportunity. Even if it's symbolic, even if it means jack in real terms, it makes me - and every other voter - a stakeholder in the process. Last thing we need is to take more people out of the process, don't you think?
The US government is not ideal. But it does derive, tenuously, its authority from the people who are governed by it. It's already been undermined thoroughly by money and power from other sources. I have no intention of speeding up that process by giving up what microscopic responsibility I have.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 03:15 am (UTC)your points about the symbolic power of voting, i agree with completely. to have this right taken away, even though i still feel it's pointless on an individual level, would be a terrible thing.
but here's where i feel myself being very hypocritical. if i feel so strongly that people should be involved in the political process beyond the fig leaf of voting, why aren't i? and i have no answers for that either.