I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here. When I'm deliberately obtuse, you'll know it, i wear a strange hat. This always seems to be the argument; that, somehow, my vote matters as part of a larger whole. But i don't see how it does. One grain of sand more, one grain of sand less, the pile remains.
and i'm equating voting with doing nothing. political change, in my opinion, and i've seen it in action, comes from three places: a loaded gun a briefcase full of cash organized grassroots organizations.
And those organized grassroots organizations which are organized at the grassroots level effect change... how?
By assembling enough of a voting bloc that the legislators and executives listen to them. Protests don't do shit to make the government change its mind, except to show that there are a lot of people out there who will vote that government out of its cushy job.
Go ahead and organize a huge bloc of 13-year-olds who want political change. Get millions of them together. And they won't be able to get shit done, because they can't vote, and no one listens to them for that reason and that reason alone.
when i think of large organizations effecting change without resorting to voting (or armed revolution), i think of the fall of the berlin wall and the changes of governments in eastern europe, east germany, czechoslovakia, and hungary in particular. in those countries, people organized, gathered, protested, marched, and forced the sitting governments out of power. the voting came later.
Well, yes. When you're explicitly laying out your criteria of large organizations effecting change without voting, then you're probably going to come up with a lot of examples of large organizations that effect change without voting. If you're willing to accept that maybe large organizations can effect change via the ballot or the threat thereof, then perhaps you can think of some instances when it's happened.
If you don't vote, you're relying upon the civic dutifulness of your fellow citizens. If they all disagree with your assessment of the futility of voting, or mostly disagree with you, then no particular foul. If they all agree with you, or mostly agree with you, then the point of voting -common opinion, common interest - is not served.
You are assuming that you are unique in your opinion, and the job will be done by others. Realistically a fair assessment, but you must consider: do you often make other people do your work for you?
Personally, I believe rights go hand in hand with responsibility. It is my right as an American citizen of the US to vote, so it is my responsibility to vote. It is also my right to speak my mind freely, and my responsibility to do so - which is why you're getting it now, lucky man. Our rights are based upon customs, laws, and documents printed on mere paper: all of these things are easy to destroy. For me, the first step in destroying them is by not making any attempt to keep them.
Personally, I believe rights go hand in hand with responsibility. It is my right as an American citizen of the US to vote, so it is my responsibility to vote. I very much agree with you that rights go hand in hand with responsibility. However, I believe that voting is a right we have been given because it doesn't matter, that it is a sop to our desire for change, our desire to make things better. Actual political change only comes through hard work, voting is too easy. Also, how can voting be important when in living memory the president who was placed in power was the one who did not have the majority of the popular vote? And then there is the issue of delegates at the political conventions. I'm under the impression, due to reading headlines about 'super-delegates' that they may vote against the wishes of the state they represent. Am I wrong about this? I see that as another way in which the individual vote is made worthless.
The way I see it, if voting is so easy, why not just do it? It doesn't preclude you from doing things you think are more important or effective. And is worth the small amount of effort on the off-chance that it *does* make a difference.
The ease of voting gives weight to the lie, makes it all the more pernicious. It's easy to do, gives the people the feeling that they've made a difference, that they've fulfilled their responsibilities and need do no more. By voting, I would buy into the lie, the myth.
Look, I'm not here to convince you to vote, but this seems more like after the fact reasoning than a plan of action. You're implying that by voting you're going to brainwash yourself, or others. Sorry, you're not that gullible, or that popular. (I mean, you're cool and all, but really.)
If you don't believe voting helps, then don't vote. It's your vote, you can do as you like with it.
what i've been trying to do, with this conversation (hijacking of mike's LJ entry), is to determine if i'm doing the right thing by not voting. i need to get other people's opinions to see if i'm acting completely irrationally. i'm trying to see if this should be my plan of action for the future.
i'm implying that by voting, i somehow, in some little way, give validation to a system that i feel is corrupt and lying.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
i'm implying that by voting, i somehow, in some little way, give validation to a system that i feel is corrupt and lying.
Of course it's a corrupt system; anything with people in it is going to be prey to corruption, deception, power-mongering and outright aggression, because we're humans and that's how we roll. My idea is to fight to minimize these things, rather than take my ball and go home. I don't think I can win; I certainly don't think I can win on my own; but my value system requires that I keep playing, even by rules that suck.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
As have yours for me. Thanks for the input, and thanks also to Mike for putting up with us both!
However, I believe that voting is a right we have been given because it doesn't matter, that it is a sop to our desire for change, our desire to make things better. Actual political change only comes through hard work, voting is too easy.
Right. But I don't see where "not voting" is a part of this process. Political activity starts, not ends, at the voting booth. For me, it's the minimum I feel I have to do as an American citizen. Beyond that, I (and Aaron, since he's the one mailing the checks) donate money to organizations that are more directly affecting change than I can on my own. I still consider that on the low end of what I could be doing, but time and skills are limited. None of this gives me a pass not to vote, however.
I think a single vote is, in the vast majority of cases, not very powerful. But the idea that votes are not powerful is an excellent way to make damned sure they are not. And there are plenty of organizations that are counting on this, and encouraging this, our own government being one of them. It would be much more convenient if they didn't have to have elections; much as it would be convenient for me to not have to get up at the asscrack of dawn to get to my polling place and do my damned bare-minimum job as a voter. But, frankly, a lot of people went through a lot of fucking inconvenience so I'd have the opportunity. Even if it's symbolic, even if it means jack in real terms, it makes me - and every other voter - a stakeholder in the process. Last thing we need is to take more people out of the process, don't you think?
The US government is not ideal. But it does derive, tenuously, its authority from the people who are governed by it. It's already been undermined thoroughly by money and power from other sources. I have no intention of speeding up that process by giving up what microscopic responsibility I have.
i feel that since the voting process has been so devalued by specific structures with american politics (the electoral college, the delegate system), voting should be taken out of the political process entirely. and yes, i know that doesn't make any sense. i'm currently flailing about trying to come up with a philosophical position that takes into account the flaws of the current system and my belief in the usefulness of direct political action.
your points about the symbolic power of voting, i agree with completely. to have this right taken away, even though i still feel it's pointless on an individual level, would be a terrible thing.
but here's where i feel myself being very hypocritical. if i feel so strongly that people should be involved in the political process beyond the fig leaf of voting, why aren't i? and i have no answers for that either.
Your one grain of sand may not matter, but add it to the number of other grains of sand who also think their vote doesn't count, and then you're really affecting the pile.
I have to wonder if you're just being contrary. Do you have a "being contrary" hat? ;-)
i'm not being contrary. i'm honestly trying to understand why my vote matters.
in a pile of sand, i don't think that one grain of sand matters one way or the other. i, as a grain of sand, have no effect on the other grains of sand. whether or not i vote, it has no effect on the outcome. i really, truly don't understand why the argument always seems to go from me not to everyone not voting.
This falls into the black hole of social reasoning: a society can only function if enough people play by its rules. Voting shares this category with: having children, working gainfully and participating in the economy (i.e. making money and buying shit), cleaning up after yourself in public places, stopping at stop signs, and tipping.
Arguments about any of these things tend to break down quickly because, well, it's actually okay if you don't do it because other people will pick up the slack, but man, if everyone does it we are on the fast track to hell. People, myself included, tend to react emotionally as well as rationally and forget that it's not about the big picture here.
(Unless you do think that we're all better off not voting, which I don't seem to find you arguing about at all.)
Your vote for the President matters about as much as the gravitational force your own body emanates effects the orbit of the Earth. It does, but not very much.
However, there are MANY more items on a ballot than the Presidential election. This election was relatively small, with only seven state propositions and one city prop (for Los Angeles). Still, each vote on those issues exerts a stronger pull. In some cases, I would not be surprised that some measure tipped one way or another just by a few hundred votes. I know there was a legislature (federal senator?) race in Washington that was extremely close, down to a few thousand. It went Democratic, giving the Dems the majority in the Senate.
Those local issues DO have a direct effect on you. If the fireworks ban for Inglewood gets passed (though at last look, I don't think it will, yay!), that means Mike and Becca's 3rd of July parties will just have BBQ and drinking, instead of sprakly explosives. And who wants that? So people need to vote.
Does your one vote matter? Ask yourself this:
Do you clap your hands or cheer at a concert or sporting event? Why? Everyone else will do it for you. And if you do, I imagine it's because you yourself enjoy the spectacle unfolding, and you wish to acknowledge or congratulate the performers. Same thing with voting. I want to say that "I support YOU, and what YOU are doing, you greedy and corrupt politician."
Personally, I vote mainly for the local issues, but hell, while I'm there, it's no big deal to push one more ink spot onto a ballot. I also thoroughly enjoy showing off my "Atheist" or "Christianity is Stupid. Give up." T-shirts when dealing with volunteer poll workers. I didn't wear one this year, unfortunately.
My vote is one teeny tiny way of saying "Fuck you! I will not be silenced! I am not a number, I am a free man!"
Go watch that Simpson's episode with the class president election of Bart vs. Martin: "One for Martin. Two for Martin. Do you want a recount? One for Martin. Two for Martin. Ha!"
I think that in honor of your icon, we need to hear from Spider regarding elections and voting.
And now that we have that cleared up, to address your points.
Clap at entertainment events? I'm from Los Angeles, I stand at the back with my arms folded and watch in boredom as the performers caper onstage and play with dildoes.
I don't support the system. That's my main problem. I'm an anarchist. And I feel that by voting, I am support a system that I feel is corrupt and repressive.
Your point about an individual vote mattering more in local affairs is well taken. If I were to vote, it would be in local elections only.
Clap at entertainment events? I'm from Los Angeles, I stand at the back with my arms folded and watch in boredom as the performers caper onstage and play with dildoes.
If it's so boring, why go? You are supporting them by paying admission. By standing there. And if you hate everything, why are you still living here, if at all?
I don't support the system. That's my main problem. I'm an anarchist. And I feel that by voting, I am support a system that I feel is corrupt and repressive.
I don't believe the system is corrupt and repressive, the people who use it are. And, strangely, enough We, the People, put the corrupt people in place. Bush only stole one election, not two.
Do you think there is any governmental system that works currently? If so, why not live there?
Something else to consider: Frank Zappa took the idea of governmental participation one step further. Don't just vote, RUN for government yourself. Look at jimkeller. Watch this great video of him on Crossfire (from '86), talking about music ratings. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc&feature=related)
Your point about an individual vote mattering more in local affairs is well taken. If I were to vote, it would be in local elections only. Every election has local matters in it. This one did, the November 7 one will as well. If you only vote in local elections, that means you'll vote every time, but you'll mark a few less bubbles than everyone else.
I recently finished a great book called The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (http://www.amazon.com/True-Believer-Thoughts-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202330576&sr=1-1), by Eric Hoffer. It states that mass movements, like Christianity, Nazism, and Al-qaeda (before it existed, the book was written in the 50's) are fueled by frustrated individuals that can't admit that their problems are their own fault, so they blame the system, and look to radical alternatives to completely do away with it. The true believer falls in to the mass movement because he or she believes they can get rid of their old identity and become a new person, a successful person (because the movement declares itself successful).
Keep in mind that although the American system of government is far from perfect or efficient, it has the amazing ability to allow the people to have a say in it, and even change it. It's not the government that's the problem, it's the greed of corporations, who mistakenly are given citizenship, that is ruining society.
And if you hate everything, why are you still living here, if at all? Because I am too poor to move elsewhere.
I don't believe the system is corrupt and repressive, the people who use it are. I'm not certain there's a distinction. Does the system exist without the people? Maybe. Maybe the idea of a participatory democracy exists without people being involved in it. But once people become involved in the system, in politics, whatever the system, that system becomes corrupt as people work for their own power and not for the benefit of the ruled.
Do you think there is any governmental system that works currently? No, not really. There are governments that are smaller and more liberal than that of America. I think they may be better, a smaller footprint of pain and suffering and corruption.
If so, why not live there? I am too poor to move elsewhere.
I am familiar with Frank Zappa's involvement in politics. If I were to become involved in the system and attempt to make it what I consider to be better, I would get involved on the bureaucratic level, through the application of time and money, not through voting.
It boils down to the fact that I perceive the American philosophy of one person, one vote, that every vote counts, that everyone should vote, to be a pernicious lie. And that makes me very angry.
Keep in mind that although the American system of government is far from perfect or efficient, it has the amazing ability to allow the people to have a say in it, and even change it. I agree with you. I just feel that voting is not the way to either have a say in it or to change it.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 06:02 pm (UTC)A heap of sand from which all grains have been removed is nothing.
Take your grain of sand and put it somewhere useful.
Moo.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 06:08 pm (UTC)This always seems to be the argument; that, somehow, my vote matters as part of a larger whole. But i don't see how it does. One grain of sand more, one grain of sand less, the pile remains.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 06:35 pm (UTC)That's right.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 07:17 pm (UTC)(falsely attributed to Edmund Burke, but still a pretty damn good quote)
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 07:24 pm (UTC)political change, in my opinion, and i've seen it in action, comes from three places:
a loaded gun
a briefcase full of cash
organized grassroots organizations.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 11:04 pm (UTC)By assembling enough of a voting bloc that the legislators and executives listen to them. Protests don't do shit to make the government change its mind, except to show that there are a lot of people out there who will vote that government out of its cushy job.
Go ahead and organize a huge bloc of 13-year-olds who want political change. Get millions of them together. And they won't be able to get shit done, because they can't vote, and no one listens to them for that reason and that reason alone.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 03:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 04:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 07:22 pm (UTC)You are assuming that you are unique in your opinion, and the job will be done by others. Realistically a fair assessment, but you must consider: do you often make other people do your work for you?
Personally, I believe rights go hand in hand with responsibility. It is my right as an American citizen of the US to vote, so it is my responsibility to vote. It is also my right to speak my mind freely, and my responsibility to do so - which is why you're getting it now, lucky man. Our rights are based upon customs, laws, and documents printed on mere paper: all of these things are easy to destroy. For me, the first step in destroying them is by not making any attempt to keep them.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 09:50 pm (UTC)I very much agree with you that rights go hand in hand with responsibility. However, I believe that voting is a right we have been given because it doesn't matter, that it is a sop to our desire for change, our desire to make things better. Actual political change only comes through hard work, voting is too easy.
Also, how can voting be important when in living memory the president who was placed in power was the one who did not have the majority of the popular vote?
And then there is the issue of delegates at the political conventions. I'm under the impression, due to reading headlines about 'super-delegates' that they may vote against the wishes of the state they represent. Am I wrong about this? I see that as another way in which the individual vote is made worthless.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 01:09 am (UTC)If you don't believe voting helps, then don't vote. It's your vote, you can do as you like with it.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 03:26 am (UTC)i'm implying that by voting, i somehow, in some little way, give validation to a system that i feel is corrupt and lying.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 04:16 am (UTC)Of course it's a corrupt system; anything with people in it is going to be prey to corruption, deception, power-mongering and outright aggression, because we're humans and that's how we roll. My idea is to fight to minimize these things, rather than take my ball and go home. I don't think I can win; I certainly don't think I can win on my own; but my value system requires that I keep playing, even by rules that suck.
your comments have been very very thought provoking. thanks for taking the time to argue with me.
As have yours for me. Thanks for the input, and thanks also to Mike for putting up with us both!
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:32 pm (UTC)Right. But I don't see where "not voting" is a part of this process. Political activity starts, not ends, at the voting booth. For me, it's the minimum I feel I have to do as an American citizen. Beyond that, I (and Aaron, since he's the one mailing the checks) donate money to organizations that are more directly affecting change than I can on my own. I still consider that on the low end of what I could be doing, but time and skills are limited. None of this gives me a pass not to vote, however.
I think a single vote is, in the vast majority of cases, not very powerful. But the idea that votes are not powerful is an excellent way to make damned sure they are not. And there are plenty of organizations that are counting on this, and encouraging this, our own government being one of them. It would be much more convenient if they didn't have to have elections; much as it would be convenient for me to not have to get up at the asscrack of dawn to get to my polling place and do my damned bare-minimum job as a voter. But, frankly, a lot of people went through a lot of fucking inconvenience so I'd have the opportunity. Even if it's symbolic, even if it means jack in real terms, it makes me - and every other voter - a stakeholder in the process. Last thing we need is to take more people out of the process, don't you think?
The US government is not ideal. But it does derive, tenuously, its authority from the people who are governed by it. It's already been undermined thoroughly by money and power from other sources. I have no intention of speeding up that process by giving up what microscopic responsibility I have.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 03:15 am (UTC)your points about the symbolic power of voting, i agree with completely. to have this right taken away, even though i still feel it's pointless on an individual level, would be a terrible thing.
but here's where i feel myself being very hypocritical. if i feel so strongly that people should be involved in the political process beyond the fig leaf of voting, why aren't i? and i have no answers for that either.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:58 pm (UTC)I have to wonder if you're just being contrary. Do you have a "being contrary" hat? ;-)
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 03:19 am (UTC)in a pile of sand, i don't think that one grain of sand matters one way or the other. i, as a grain of sand, have no effect on the other grains of sand. whether or not i vote, it has no effect on the outcome. i really, truly don't understand why the argument always seems to go from me not to everyone not voting.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 04:26 am (UTC)Arguments about any of these things tend to break down quickly because, well, it's actually okay if you don't do it because other people will pick up the slack, but man, if everyone does it we are on the fast track to hell. People, myself included, tend to react emotionally as well as rationally and forget that it's not about the big picture here.
(Unless you do think that we're all better off not voting, which I don't seem to find you arguing about at all.)
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 08:35 am (UTC)However, there are MANY more items on a ballot than the Presidential election. This election was relatively small, with only seven state propositions and one city prop (for Los Angeles). Still, each vote on those issues exerts a stronger pull. In some cases, I would not be surprised that some measure tipped one way or another just by a few hundred votes. I know there was a legislature (federal senator?) race in Washington that was extremely close, down to a few thousand. It went Democratic, giving the Dems the majority in the Senate.
Those local issues DO have a direct effect on you. If the fireworks ban for Inglewood gets passed (though at last look, I don't think it will, yay!), that means Mike and Becca's 3rd of July parties will just have BBQ and drinking, instead of sprakly explosives. And who wants that? So people need to vote.
Does your one vote matter? Ask yourself this:
Do you clap your hands or cheer at a concert or sporting event? Why? Everyone else will do it for you. And if you do, I imagine it's because you yourself enjoy the spectacle unfolding, and you wish to acknowledge or congratulate the performers. Same thing with voting. I want to say that "I support YOU, and what YOU are doing, you greedy and corrupt politician."
Personally, I vote mainly for the local issues, but hell, while I'm there, it's no big deal to push one more ink spot onto a ballot. I also thoroughly enjoy showing off my "Atheist" or "Christianity is Stupid. Give up." T-shirts when dealing with volunteer poll workers. I didn't wear one this year, unfortunately.
My vote is one teeny tiny way of saying "Fuck you! I will not be silenced! I am not a number, I am a free man!"
Go watch that Simpson's episode with the class president election of Bart vs. Martin:
"One for Martin. Two for Martin. Do you want a recount? One for Martin. Two for Martin. Ha!"
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 08:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 05:22 pm (UTC)And now that we have that cleared up, to address your points.
Clap at entertainment events? I'm from Los Angeles, I stand at the back with my arms folded and watch in boredom as the performers caper onstage and play with dildoes.
I don't support the system. That's my main problem. I'm an anarchist. And I feel that by voting, I am support a system that I feel is corrupt and repressive.
Your point about an individual vote mattering more in local affairs is well taken. If I were to vote, it would be in local elections only.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 08:44 pm (UTC)If it's so boring, why go? You are supporting them by paying admission. By standing there. And if you hate everything, why are you still living here, if at all?
I don't support the system. That's my main problem. I'm an anarchist. And I feel that by voting, I am support a system that I feel is corrupt and repressive.
I don't believe the system is corrupt and repressive, the people who use it are. And, strangely, enough We, the People, put the corrupt people in place. Bush only stole one election, not two.
Do you think there is any governmental system that works currently? If so, why not live there?
Something else to consider: Frank Zappa took the idea of governmental participation one step further. Don't just vote, RUN for government yourself. Look at
Your point about an individual vote mattering more in local affairs is well taken. If I were to vote, it would be in local elections only.
Every election has local matters in it. This one did, the November 7 one will as well. If you only vote in local elections, that means you'll vote every time, but you'll mark a few less bubbles than everyone else.
I recently finished a great book called The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (http://www.amazon.com/True-Believer-Thoughts-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202330576&sr=1-1), by Eric Hoffer. It states that mass movements, like Christianity, Nazism, and Al-qaeda (before it existed, the book was written in the 50's) are fueled by frustrated individuals that can't admit that their problems are their own fault, so they blame the system, and look to radical alternatives to completely do away with it. The true believer falls in to the mass movement because he or she believes they can get rid of their old identity and become a new person, a successful person (because the movement declares itself successful).
Keep in mind that although the American system of government is far from perfect or efficient, it has the amazing ability to allow the people to have a say in it, and even change it. It's not the government that's the problem, it's the greed of corporations, who mistakenly are given citizenship, that is ruining society.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-06 11:23 pm (UTC)Because I am too poor to move elsewhere.
I'm not certain there's a distinction. Does the system exist without the people? Maybe. Maybe the idea of a participatory democracy exists without people being involved in it. But once people become involved in the system, in politics, whatever the system, that system becomes corrupt as people work for their own power and not for the benefit of the ruled.
No, not really. There are governments that are smaller and more liberal than that of America. I think they may be better, a smaller footprint of pain and suffering and corruption.
I am too poor to move elsewhere.
I am familiar with Frank Zappa's involvement in politics. If I were to become involved in the system and attempt to make it what I consider to be better, I would get involved on the bureaucratic level, through the application of time and money, not through voting.
It boils down to the fact that I perceive the American philosophy of one person, one vote, that every vote counts, that everyone should vote, to be a pernicious lie. And that makes me very angry.
I agree with you. I just feel that voting is not the way to either have a say in it or to change it.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 05:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 05:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 06:15 pm (UTC)Me, too! (Absentee ballot, in fact.)
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:00 pm (UTC)my you've blossomed over the years.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:05 pm (UTC)Actually, that's my pal,
no subject
Date: 2008-02-05 10:06 pm (UTC)she is quite a looker though!
no subject
Date: 2008-02-09 03:09 am (UTC)