I still believe that Final Girl is a game because there is a structure to it, rules of things we can and cannot do. Those rules are artificial, and there is a quantifiable goal: decide which character survives. The people are the randomizers, their role playing ability. Does it lie in the fuzzy realm between collaborative storytelling and game? Absolutely.
It bears mentioning that I'm not claiming that the definition of "game" that I was using is the only valid one; hell, it's not even the only one that I'll use. If someone says "What did you do last Saturday?" I'm going to answer "Played some games," not "Some games plus a storytelling exercise."
The only reason I drew out all those distinctions is because you wanted to know what I meant when I said "there's no 'game' per se" to "Final Girl". And I see what you're saying, but if I wanted to be really technical about it I still say that when no player has a particular set goal and the mechanics don't really give you any option to protect "your" character anyway, that's a lot more like writing a script than playing chess. But I've said all I have to say about it and it's not like I'm going to fight anybody who uses a different definition.
I have yet to play Fiasco, though I'd very much like to. I am told that Final Girl is based on Geiger Counter, but I don't know if GC is more of a storytelling exercise in that sense or if it's more "game"-y. Either way, hopefully I'll have an opportunity to check it out at some point.
If you missed it, I think this is an "is/ought" argument
Hmm. Maybe. I think we've touched on a number of subjects - what the term "LARP" ought to encompass, where the distinction between "game" and "not a game" is drawn, and so forth. For the record, although I don't feel any need to impose my own definitions on others, I do feel that the discussion helps highlight the way different people think about the form. And some of the terminology being developed by the folks who take it seriously as an academic discipline can be useful - "bleed", for example, is a damned useful word for discussing LARP, once everyone understands what it means. Long story short, I completely agree that the knowledge and framework is helpful.
but I'd love to debate this more, later, over beers.
I've never yet said no to yakking about LARP over beer.
no subject
It bears mentioning that I'm not claiming that the definition of "game" that I was using is the only valid one; hell, it's not even the only one that I'll use. If someone says "What did you do last Saturday?" I'm going to answer "Played some games," not "Some games plus a storytelling exercise."
The only reason I drew out all those distinctions is because you wanted to know what I meant when I said "there's no 'game' per se" to "Final Girl". And I see what you're saying, but if I wanted to be really technical about it I still say that when no player has a particular set goal and the mechanics don't really give you any option to protect "your" character anyway, that's a lot more like writing a script than playing chess. But I've said all I have to say about it and it's not like I'm going to fight anybody who uses a different definition.
I have yet to play Fiasco, though I'd very much like to. I am told that Final Girl is based on Geiger Counter, but I don't know if GC is more of a storytelling exercise in that sense or if it's more "game"-y. Either way, hopefully I'll have an opportunity to check it out at some point.
If you missed it, I think this is an "is/ought" argument
Hmm. Maybe. I think we've touched on a number of subjects - what the term "LARP" ought to encompass, where the distinction between "game" and "not a game" is drawn, and so forth. For the record, although I don't feel any need to impose my own definitions on others, I do feel that the discussion helps highlight the way different people think about the form. And some of the terminology being developed by the folks who take it seriously as an academic discipline can be useful - "bleed", for example, is a damned useful word for discussing LARP, once everyone understands what it means. Long story short, I completely agree that the knowledge and framework is helpful.
but I'd love to debate this more, later, over beers.
I've never yet said no to yakking about LARP over beer.